Steve Jobs on Pixar and Storytelling: Technology in Service of Art

Toy Story made history last year as the first computer-generated full-length feature film. Not now, Slink. I got some bad news. Bad news? Just gather everyone up for a staff meeting and be happy. Got it. Be happy. Staff meeting, everybody. Snake, Robot, Podium Dude. Hey, Edge. Draw. Oh, got me again. Edge, you've been working on that draw. Fastest knobs in the West. I got a staff meeting, you guys. Come on, let's go. Where is that? Hey, who moved my doodle pad way over here? How you doing, Rex?

Were you scared? Tell me honestly. I was close to being scared that time. Oh, I'm going for fearsome here, but I just don't feel it. I think I'm just coming off as annoying. Ow! Oh, hi, Bo. Hi. I wanted to thank you, Woody, for saving my flock. Oh, hey. It was nothing. What do you say I get someone else to watch the sheep tonight? Hell, yeah. Remember, I'm just a couple of blocks away. The film earned over $192 million domestically, more than $300 million internationally. It will soon be released on home video. Its technology and success have revolutionized the business of animation and opened the door to endless possibility between Hollywood and the Silicon Valley.

Joining me now, Academy Award-winning director John Lasseter. He led the innovative team from Pixar Animation that brought the film to life. Also, Pixar's chairman and CEO, Steve Jobs. He introduced computers to the ordinary user when he co-founded Apple Computers. He currently heads Next Software, and I'm pleased to have both of them here to talk about what's happening in the world of animation and this marvelous relationship between film and computers producing animation. Welcome. Thank you, Charlie. Let me start with you, John, as a director. What's going on? I mean, what does Pixar do that's so extraordinary? I think what Pixar does that's so extraordinary is that we have taken a look at this new technology, computer animation, and we don't look at it as a way to replace any of the creativity or any of the real art of filmmaking.

We look at it as these are just great, new, expensive pencils. That's what it is. It's artists using these computers as though an artist at Disney uses a piece of paper and a pencil. Because the focus of what we do is still where it's most important, and that's with the story and the characters. I think Toy Story is a success not because it's computer generated. It's a success because it has the characters of Buzz Lightyear and Woody and the storyline that really has captivated audiences. But the question still is, what could you do because of new technology and how faster and how less expensive than the old way? What's interesting is I think when computers come into any kind of...

Let me interrupt myself. More creative freedom, in a sense, to roll because the technology allows you that. Well, it's two aspects of what you asked. One, what's interesting is it's a very common belief that when computers come into a new artistic medium, it's either less expensive, takes less time, or it's going to replace something. It reminds me a lot of when photography was invented. Everybody thought that painting was going to get replaced. And that is something that really just won't happen. What computer animation does is it has a whole new look. But the key word is animation. Animation, by definition, is making a motion picture frame by frame by frame by frame. And that doesn't change.

We labor over every single frame. And so I worked on Toy Story for over four years. The full production was two and a half years. The difference between Toy Story and Lion King or Pocahontas or Hunchback... What is the difference? The difference is that we used a lot less people. Well, that's my point. It made it more efficient to do. Yeah. And also we were a much smaller studio. We were kind of a leaner sort of group. Did it look any better on the screen? Well, that is something for the viewer to choose. It looks different. I'm not going to say whether it's different. How does it look different? It's more dimensional. What excited me about this medium... I was trained as a traditional animator. I love Disney animation. I love Warner Brothers cartoons.

That's what I grew up on. And I got really excited about animation. I was trained as a traditional animator. Drawing, design, all that. But what excited me when I first saw my first computer animation back in about 1981... was that it was three-dimensional. You were able to create a world that was totally dimensional. You were able to move in and around objects... which you had never been able to do in hand-drawn animation. And so, therefore, that got me so excited. And I think what Toy Story was different on... what made it unique is that we chose a subject matter. Toys being alive that really lent itself beautifully to the medium. How did you, sir...

What do I got to do with this all? Exactly. I mean, you know, you're a guy who founds high-tech companies... and tries to make another billion dollars. Yeah, well, I don't think of myself that way, but... I know you don't. I wish I could do it. No, no, no. Stop, stop, stop. How do you think of yourself? I mean, after Apple, after Nex... how do you think of yourself? You know, the things that I've done in my life... I think the things we do now at Pixar... these are team sports. You know, they're not something that one person does. We've got... You have to have an extraordinary team... because these are... You're trying to climb a mountain with a whole party of people. A lot of stuff to bring up the mountain. So one person can't do it. And I first got involved in this... when I heard about this incredible group of... computer graphics specialists...

that George Lucas had assembled at Lucasfilm... that he wanted to sell. And so I went up there and saw what they were doing... and I met the leader of this group... Dr. Ed Catmull. And Ed told me about his dream... which was to make the first computer animated feature film someday... and showed me what this team was working on. And I was... I was blown away. I'd spent a lot of time in computer graphics... with the Macintosh and the laser writer and stuff... but this was way beyond anything I'd seen. And so I bought into that dream... both spiritually, if you will, and financially. And we bought the computer division from George... and incorporated it as Pixar. John was there from the very start. Ed was there, and we were joined by other people along the way.

And it took us ten years to do it. What was so hard? There were... Good question, huh, John? Yeah, it's a good question. It took us a long time to build the technical foundation... to do this stuff. We were pioneering every step of the way. Pixar invented all this stuff. But as John says, we don't view ourselves as a technology company. Our product is content. We're an entertainment company. And all this technology really is just in the service of the storytelling. The service of the creative people. And computer animation is even a little bit of a misnomer. The computers don't do the animation. They do the drawing. And they crank on these drawings for three hours... by one of the fastest computers in the world... which is why the drawings are three-dimensional. The animators act.

You know, I've watched John and his teamwork. And they're the heart and soul of the characters. They do all the acting, not the computers. Okay, but let me just make sure I understand what you're saying. I mean, I would think that people... I mean, when I was telling you about my interest in... what in the world is going on and where the future is headed... and you said to me, that's not what we're about. And the point you wanted to make is that we're about entertainment. And we're about technology in the service of the entertainment that we create, right? We're about putting stories into the culture. That's what we're about. We're about telling stories. And you've got a different paintbrush... and you've got a different canvas than everybody else does. Or it's a more advanced, it's a better, it's a more something. I'll let John speak to this, but I know a lot of people at Pixar... our heroes are Disney.

I mean, look at what they've done. We've all got young children. And our kids watch these Disney films. And they learn a lot from these Disney films. You know, about good and evil and right and wrong. And, you know, they're entertained all along the way. It's a great storytelling. It's incredible what they've done. Before I ask you this, what's the biggest ever success in animation? Huge. Lion King. Lion King. Lion King broke all the records. Far and away. And then Aladdin is right after that. And then Toy Story. And there's a lot of difference in terms of the way Lion King was made... and the way Toy Story was made. Yeah. A world of difference. Yes and no. And nothing different about what came out of the head of the animator. Right.

The process is very much the same in the development of the story. Animation is very different than live-action filmmaking. Because in live-action filmmaking, the director starts with a script... and then, you know, blocks out the shot, goes to the set... and films it from all different angles. Covers the scene 10, 20 different times. Close-ups, long shots, two shots, so on. Takes all that footage, goes into the editing room... and makes the film there. You know, it pieces it together, juxtaposes things, edits the film. It's always the post-production, after the fact. Production of the footage is so time-consuming, therefore expensive, it's really the time is why it's expensive. We can't really afford to do a scene ten different ways.

You know, we have to do it just, every frame has to count. So what we do is in the story development, you pretty much edit your film in advance. Now what I mean by that is you start with the script, and then what we do is we do storyboards. Sort of a visual script. Old-fashioned storyboards or new? Old-fashioned. You know, with storyboards, one of the things at Pixar is that we don't want to replace, we don't want to throw everything in the animation filmmaking process out the window and replace it with new technology. We use a technology where it's going to make the film better, or make the film, you know, different. Storyboarding, there's nothing better than a piece of paper and a pencil and a four-by-eight piece of cellulite. You got no story, you got no film. Yeah, and you got no story.

So then you do a story reel. You cut that onto film. And in our case, we use a computer there. We use a non-linear editing system that's very common in the industry now, but it makes so that we can look at those still drawings with scratch dialogue, scratch music, sit back, watch it on a big projection video, and that film will tell us if it's working or not. If it's working in our story reels, when we animate it and put the colors to it, it's going to work even better. If it's not working in the story reels, the animation won't save it. In essence, it lets us beta test and iterate our film before we make it. Totally different than live-action filmmaking. And we believe it's one of the reasons that the hit rate can be substantially different.

And that process we're talking about really isn't much different than Disney did Snow White with, you know? But you look, you know, that's one of the things is that Disney and Pixar, we labor over the stories. You know, I mentioned I worked four years on Toy Story. The first year and a half was story development alone. You know, we worked so hard, because the most important thing to me in creation of Toy Story was to make a film that, of course, kids will like, because it's all about toys. I mean, most kids look at it as a documentary, you know? And the parents are going to like it. And then the adults without kids would like it. And then teenagers. I have a 16-year-old son named Joey, and he was one of my most important test audiences. Because I... How old?

Sixteen. Sixteen. And he, it was so important for me, I showed him stuff constantly to see if it was cool or not, you know? Because, you know, teenagers tend to not like a lot of things, and so it was important for us to, if we can get the teenage audience... You tested it with Joey. I did. All right. Take a look at this. This is another clip from Toy Story, an illustration of what we're talking about. We're not that far from the space... The door! It's open! We're free! What if you don't know what's out there? I'll tell you what... Ah! Ah! They're going to eat us, Buzz! Do something quick! Shield your eyes! It's not working. I retried it before I left. It should be good now. What are you, idiot? You're a toy! Use your karate chop action! Get over here! Hey, hey! How you doing?

Stop that! Back! Back, you savages! Back! Woody, stop that! Sorry, guys, but dinner's canceled! There's no place like home! There's no place like home! There's no place like home! Okay, before I leave Toy Story, which we've talked about a lot here, how do you see this being applied to other whatever? Think freely for me. I mean, you've got a pretty good eye for the future. Well, you know, one of the things... this stuff's really hard. It takes us four years to make these films, and we'll get them out more frequently by overlapping them, but four years is a pretty big investment in these things.

But when it works, it can be phenomenal. You know, Snow White is 60 years old. Who do you know that hasn't seen Snow White? I know people on most continents, and I don't think I know one person that hasn't seen Snow White. So the ability for these things to live for 60 or even 100 years is amazing, and that's very different than the technology world that I've come from. You know, most of the technology products we do, Apple IIs, Macintoshes, you name it, they tend... They're obsolete in 18 months. Yeah. They shrink to six months fast. You're lucky if they live 10 to 15 years. I mean, it's a very rare exception. And then they become sort of part of the sediment layer for things to build upon. These things can live for 100 years, and so it's very different. We're not competing against, you know, a Microsoft or another company.

We're competing against, can we make a great film that people love? That's what we compete against. And so every day when we go to work, we're saying, you know, how do we make... All right, but two questions quickly, because one is, why should I come to Pixar if I'm a great animator? Yes. And if I've got a great story idea, why should I come to you? Three. Three reasons. One, Pixar is a place more than anywhere else in the world that they can get creative satisfaction. We try to give these artists a project that they can be proud of for the rest of their careers. That's one. That's a big thing. I know, because I've worked in a lot of places where I was working on kind of garbage, and it's hard to work. Secondly, in working with these people, I try so hard, even if it's the smallest task, to give them a little bit of creative ownership, to let them figure out how to do it.

I don't tell people how to do it. And so that is a really important reason. And the most important thing is that at Pixar, we have a lot of fun. You know, and it comes... I think it shows in the film. I can see it when you think about it, you know, and remember, there's not much political satire on American television. Some political satire can be done in animation, in an interesting way, because you can use characters. You could do this if you had a good storyteller, had great writers. You could probably do it faster and quicker and more interestingly. Political satire is interesting. It's what Steve was talking about. It quickly becomes dated. Oh, I see. So therefore, you don't have the pay. You know, what we try to do is make stories that will lessen.

That's why the choice of all the existing toys in Toy Story. There's Mr. Potato Head. There's Etch-a-Sketch, Magic 8-Ball. It's the things that we had as kids, that kids still have today. And you don't have to play any residuals actors either, do you? Mr. Potato Head, you know, it was a tough deal to negotiate with him. No, I'm just kidding. I had you there. I know. I thought, oh, I thought maybe somebody owned it. Well, they do, but they were very kind. Why has the stock, has the stock come down? Well, we went out at the IPO at $22 a share, and I didn't check the price today, but it's probably somewhere around $17, $18 a share. And I think part of that, well, I don't know why the stock market does what it does. So that's the first answer.

Second answer is, I think a lot of people thought we were a technology company. And we maybe didn't do a good enough job explaining to people, no, we're an entertainment company. We're not a quarter-to-quarter earnings company. We were building assets that are sort of annuities into the future. And so I think we're slowly, people are slowly coming around to that, understanding how difficult this is to do. You know, since Snow White was released in 1928, which was the first animated feature film ever, 60 years ago, every major studio has tried to break into this business. And until last December, Disney was the only studio that had ever made a feature animated film that was a blockbuster, $100 million or more in domestic box office. And last December, Pixar became the second studio in history to do that. So it's a very, very rarified ability to make these products.

And I think Pixar is really able to do this quite well. And what happens after the contract with the three-picture deal with Disney goes? You know, we love working with Disney. It's a fantastic partnership. So you know, who knows? Maybe we'll put something together to keep making films with them. I want to talk about the business, the overall business, which you know something about the computer business, too. Does it bring, how do you feel about what's happened to Apple? You know, all the work we did at Apple lives on. It lives on in the Macintosh, and now it lives on in Windows 95. Yeah, of course it does. But yeah, but that's interesting to say, and clearly it does. But it's Windows 95, it's Microsoft, it's not Apple. Right. But it's still the work.

It's still the innovation. So... Did it have to turn out the way it did? It's hard to predict these things. I mean, Apple's... Yeah, come on, you've thought about this. This is not a subject that's unfamiliar to you. Yeah, it is. It's sort of ancient history to me right now. I don't really think about this stuff anymore, and Apple and Microsoft duke it out, and Netscape and Microsoft duke it out. To me, it's a spectator sport at this point. Do you care about it? Do you have any interest in it? Does the ideas that, does the internet mean anything to you? Well, sure, the internet's great. I mean, I look at it... Do you use it? Do you care about it? I use it every day, and I do care about it, and I think it's phenomenal, what's happening. The internet is clearly the most exciting thing in the computer business. But right now, I look at the computer business mostly as a consumer at Pixar, because we are one of the largest consumers of computing in the world, and we use it to make our films.

But also, I mean, I hear you, and you clearly, I mean, you understand marketing very, very well. That was your genius in the beginning, yes? You understood the concept, and you understood marketing. You'll grant me that question. Is it when you look at Pixar... are you seem to say to be saying to me and to you and john together as a i want my companies misunderstood it's not a computer company it's a filmmaking company you know and that and that sort of a you realize that in terms of some maybe truth but also in terms of some marketing savvy we've got to make sure that we had to get this word out that this thing is about entertainment that's not about computer we want to be characterized like everybody else you know and part of your effort part of the reason for appearing here and etc you know i think we definitely want to get that word out but i have this incredible confidence that the word will get out and as we make more films will demonstrate that by our results it what the interesting thing is when these films take four years to make and they last for sixty or a hundred years you start to develop a longer focal length point of view than just the next six months but here you are you went from apple where you made a lot of money and then scully came in and you left and bum bum bum bum bum and then you went to next which was never quite as much as what people thought it might be right below those coming back now well i don't understand and if it now but you're your head seems to be into filmmaking but you started this you went to see george lucas because you're out there as an entrepreneur looking for ideas right uh... until i was involved in this idea now you're saying

i mean it's a and it will bring the idea that i was going to say you've really got a lot about it and i think i think you should know that i think he bought it story that he believes he's a believer character he's a believer i know he is i got into this because of the technology at the beginning they decided to call it blew me away when we have more phd's work on toy story than any film in history tremendous computer science that's what drew me into it initially but you're john's right he educated me that what we are really about a storytelling because it was a he's a brain and it's been ten years educated better at it it's been ten years so so what it did when whether they the day that that stock went public doesn't been ten years ago shot yet mixer because you put i don't know what about fifty hundred much money your own money to put into the beginning over fifty point fifty million all of a sudden because it's the way to take notice not because you needed a billion dollars all of a sudden after ten years there was a recognition by the marketplace this had been a wise fruitful productive fruition and i'm gonna come back interview you in five years and find that you're in some other business and you're not in the entertainment business you found some other well-to-do fishing you know i tend to stay where where i i start until somebody kicks me out uh...

thank you for coming great thank you very much picture treasure thank you uh... we'll be right back don't go away